Wednesday, June 15, 2011

Heresy; or, When Systems Collide

Something's been increasingly sticking in my craw lately. A heretical idea that refuses to die.

Why can't I run one system while the players play another?

I first ran across this idea in a long-forgotten blog or message board post. Someone talked about how they ran 3.5e for their players, but used Moldvay B/X behind the screen. In other words, the players got the use of all the feats and powers and whatever various other arcane complexities their hearts desired, while the DM jammed econo behind the screen, worrying only about basic hit dice, Armor Class, and monster-specific special abilities. Aside from adjusting AC from descending to ascending, there was very little the DM needed to do.

There's a peculiar philosophy in gaming that says that the GM has to be playing by the same rules as the players. On a certain level, this makes sense. I mean, no one wants to game with a GM who is making shit up as he goes along. But as long as the GM is operating within his own framework of rules, who says they have to be the same as the rules the players use? I mean, no one expects a DM to award experience points to his NPCs and keep track of their levels, for example.

I've heard it said that it's not unusual for even game designers to not use their own rules as written. But I've been thinking bigger. Why not use two completely different systems?

The example that got me to write this post comes courtesy of an old post on Risus Monkey in which he talks about using Risus as a shorthand for GURPS NPCs. One of the things that drove me away from GURPS, as much as I admire the changes implemented in Fourth Edition, was the d20-esque stat blocks, with their line after line of different abilities, exceptions, and special powers. As Christian aptly puts it in a comment to this post (which features a fine example of the sort of stat block I'm talking about), GURPS character creation is almost a mini-game unto itself. Now, that would be highly desirable to me as a player. But as a GM? A shorthand system for creating NPCs is a godsend.

But why not take it a step further? With a Rosetta Stone like the one Risus Monkey posted, I could easily run a Risus game while my players played GURPS. Any interactions between the two systems could be quickly solved using the Rosetta Stone. Obviously this would work best (or at all) with a complex system and a simple system, or two simple systems. But that's the only reason I'd do this anyway; my priorities as GM these days are simplicity and speed, both for prep and for running a game. BRP and Savage Worlds meet those needs well enough, but there's just something about more complex systems like 3.5/Pathfinder or GURPS that I think are super fun for the players, and I hate to deprive my players of that opportunity should they choose to so indulge.

At any rate, these are all just random thoughts at this point. I don't anticipate a chance to put my heresy into practice any time in the foreseeable future. How about you all? Has anyone tried running one system while their group played another?

14 comments:

  1. I think they're pretty brilliant random thoughts. Don't exactly know what to do with them yet... but I think you're busy opening a whole new can of worms. In a good sense, that is ;-)

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  2. SURE! I FINK MENTZUR POSETD ON DRAGNSOFFOT THAT HE LET PLAIRS USE ANY OF TEH TSR DAND'S THEY ARE WANTED WILE HE USED WAT HE WAS WNATED FOR DM.

    ALSOS WAIR IS YORE JOESKY TACKS YOU CHEAB ASTID??!

    -NUNYA

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  3. Jaap: Yeah, we'll see, eh? Thanks for the kind words!

    Anonymous Nunners: Mentzer, yes. That does sound familiar, although I don't frequent Dragonsfoot. Maybe I read it somewhere else. I wasn't aware this sort of post required a Joesky Tax, since I'm not really ranting about something I don't like, just looking for solutions. But if you'd like, as a compromise payment please refer to my previous post for enough free content to choke a d30.

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  4. OK U R RIGHTS, U ARE NOT TAX BUT I ARE WATCHINGS, IN EED MORE RFRE SHIT!!1!

    :p

    -NUNYA

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  5. I wish I'd have had this thought when I was running 3.x! That would have made my life so much easier!

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  6. I WPNT TO USE ADD 1e PAYLRE' SHANDBOOK FOR AND B/X 4 DM MYELF BUT I PRETNED TO THE KEWL KIDS ON THE NET I LIKE S&W....SHHHH DON'T TO LET TEHM NOE!

    I THNK IS AWLTH E SAME RELAY, THE PC STILL GO AARRGHHH!!! WHEN SCUWERED BY THE ORK'S PIKE IN TEH END!
    :p

    -Nunya

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  7. I did this, running Keep on the borderlands straight out of the adventure for pathfinder. Works perfectly.

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  8. I’ve long thought that, when GMing, most of the time I translate things between whatever system I’m supposed to be running and my own generic system in my head.

    I want to play with a GM who is making stuff up as he goes along.

    I find I have the most fun as GM when the players aren’t thinking in terms of mechanics. So, I tend to prefer convincing the players to use a lighter system as well.

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  9. Hah, sychronicity -- I had this exact same thought last night! I was 1. lamenting the fact of having so few players in my Labyrinth Lord game, 2. browsing an old d20 book and wondering if I'd get more players if we were playing D&D 3.5 (which I am most un-fond of).

    I thought that the power levels are pretty different though. As far as I remember, it's not unusual for a ("well-optimized", gaaaggh) 1st level PC in D&D 3.5 to have like +5 or +6 to attack, which is an enormous advantage over 1st level B/X monsters.

    I also thought that I couldn't handle all the skills & feats the players would want to use -- I'd just end up wanting to ignore them all, which sort of defeats the point of the exercise! ;)

    It's an interesting concept though...

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  10. I'm a huge believer in blending systems---welding Aspects or Bennies onto a system that did not previously possess them.

    But I think my fundamental predilection for the last decade+ of DnD product is at the basis for my thinking that your heresy is less than employable. It's important to stress, though, that part of the reason for this skepticism is that I would much rather run one system that borrows heavily from others than try to pull some sort of post-screen post-op activity.

    I can run, say, Scion in a Savage Worlds setting using FATE rules (you and your bride know this best of all); but the core conceit is always that there's one set of rules we all learn, rather than me using something different than my players.

    Is this preference, versus me hearing the subtle susurration of the Ur-game and its desires? S'not for me to say.

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  11. Just so that I've mentioned it, the main reason you wouldn't do this is not because of difficulties in conflict resolution - all versions of D&D, ever, can be parsed as "d20 and modifiers against a target number." Where you might run into issues - and this only applies in certain kinds of games and approaches to things like cosmology and mysticism - is in the differing spell lists and spellcasting classes.

    What I mean by that is, if you're running Moldvay and your players are expecting it to smell like 3.x, well, they're never going to see an NPC that works like an actual 3.x sorcerer, bard, etc. They're never going to have NPCs cast a scorching ray at them (or, interpreted strictly, find that spell in an enemy spellbook). Now, I assume you would relax the separation between "your" side of the rules and theirs to fix this, but still. For some groups and some players, it is important that all characters in the gameworld operate on a system of magic that they can learn and come to predict - if you and your players don't care about this, then cool.

    Oh, and grappling rules, touch attacks, and saving throws. You can create workarounds for all of this, but in the long run I think there are more efficient workarounds for simplifying your life in running 3.x D&D.

    If you do run a game this way, I'd love to hear about your experiences with it!

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  12. I still use Risus behind the screens as described in my post that you mentioned but your post makes me think that I could go even further and run everything behind the screen using a different system. I'd need to define conversion tables for information that pass between me and the players (target numbers/roll modifiers, damage, etc).

    And, it's not just Risus. Like you mentioned, using an early version of D&D when running a newer version is also a candidate for this treatment.

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  13. Looks like you may have been reading the "Moldvay to 3.5e Bridge" posting on Dragonsfoot some time ago: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7487

    The info pulled together there is gone now, but there are links via the Wayback Machine (pdf links provided):

    Player's Handbook: http://web.archive.org/web/20060216121553/http://home.psknet.com/allenr/Ursia/Warriors_Wizards.pdf

    Spellbook: http://web.archive.org/web/20060216121553/http://home.psknet.com/allenr/Ursia/WWS1_Spellbook.pdf


    Seems like an interesting concept....

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