Let's go back a little bit. About two weeks before moving day we had our last face-to-face session our Wilderlands campaign. It was fitting, I think, that as Des and I were preparing to bid farewell to our own real-life City-State, the PC group decided they were fed up with the City-State of the Invincible Overlord and bid it a not-so-fond adieu. In so doing, they threw down one of those challenges that really tests the mettle of a hybrid sandbox-module GM like myself--they pretty much ignored the adventure hook dangling before them and said, "Let's go do this instead!"
Fortunately, that point came relatively late in the session and I was able to BS my way through the remaining time, leaving off with many mental notes on stuff to read up on for next time, when we'll "meet in the aether" as one player put it. (With cross-platform Mac/PC compatibility and low buy-in cost as my top priorities, right now I'm looking to use a combination of Skype and d20 Pro.)
The irony, of course, was that the adventure hook I was dangling happened to be the very module I had intended to run for the group as soon as they arrived in the City-State. And I would have too, except I ran out of prep time before that particular session, so I just threw a bunch of rumors at them from the CSIO "Rumor Table"--which in turn sparked about 3-4 sessions' worth of bopping around, some of which I've written about. I don't think I mentioned running them through the "Tower of Mouths" scenario from Knockspell (a fun little dungeon crawl), a venture which resulted in Rumple Wumpkin nearly dying a third time (poison gas this time around) and the group barely escaping from the tower as it collapsed in on itself after Pilar the Halfling Cleric jammed the tower's massive hydraulic pumping mechanism.
So after a week of game time spent whoring, boozing, getting cursed and chased and ambushed, the group finally met with a sage they'd hired at the Sage's Guild, one Gigex the Erudite, to answer some questions; namely, Rumple Wumpkin wanted to know about the history of the Beastmasters, since she was apparently the only known living example. After finding out what happened to the other Beastmasters and the possibility that there may still be one lurking in the heart of the Dearthwood, the group seemed suddenly interested in moving on.
Realizing what I'd done, I tried in vain to dangle the adventure hook before them, and they sort of took the bait. Unfortunately, the first clue in the new adventure took them down to the houseboat shantytown on the banks of the Conqueror's River. After nullifying the exciting chase scene that the module had spelled out by simply shooting the guy they were after, they hopped a boat and booked it for Modron.
And that's where we left off. I've had some opportunity to think about the campaign since then, and I've come to a couple, well, disturbing conclusions.
First off, I've been thinking about the way I've been running the setting. The Wilderlands are, of course, one of the all-time classic "old school" campaign settings out there. Running the setting "as intended" (if such a term can be applied to a Judge's Guild product) pretty much requires lots of 70s flash mixed with a healthy dose of Frazetta. And god knows that's how I wanted to run it. Really! But I've come to the realization that my love of fantastic realism and my "Silver Age" roots are much stronger than I gave them credit for. As much as I've tried to stay faithful to the sword and sorcery baseline of the setting, I'm afraid things have been much more vanilla in execution. I posted a bong-rattling Wilderlands mix last year, but since then I have failed to bring the proper vibe to match the music in that playlist. Instead, it's been something much less like this, and much more like this.
Not that that's necessarily a bad thing. It's just that I was hoping to do something a little different with the Wilderlands. And don't get me wrong--it's not like I've turned the Wilderlands into the Forgotten Realms or anything. It's just that my roots are showing. It's sort of the opposite process of what Amityville Mike has been writing about lately. In the end, I decided, "To hell with it--I'll run my version of the Wilderlands as a pastiche of S&S and Silver Age fantasy." Then I had an interesting conversation with Des today.
See, Des doesn't like D&D. No sir, not one bit.
She's a Chaosium/BRP fangirl through and through: give her Call of Cthulhu and Pendragon, and she's perfectly happy. (This, of course, is why she has won my heart.) She plays D&D for the social aspect; the other two players in the group are good friends, and D&D is how we get together. Over the past week or so, as I've been preparing to start up the Wilderlands campaign again, I've been thinking about ways I could inspire Des to be a little more enthusiastic about the game itself. Maybe creating a new character? Or giving her halfling cleric a developed background with my copy of Central Casting: Heroes of Legend? These suggestions were met with a sort of shoulder-shrugging reticence that told me there was some pretty deep stuff going on.
So we had a conversation today. "What don't you like about D&D?" I asked.
She thought about it quietly for several minutes. Not even joking. She was committed to giving a comprehensive answer, and I got one.
In essence, it boils down to a dislike of the system and a dislike of the genre conventions. In other words, pretty much everything that makes classic D&D, well, classic D&D.
She dislikes all the pluses and minuses and "to hit" calculations and so forth involved with most D&D iterations. She dislikes the steep learning curve for most classes ("Okay, I'm playing a cleric and I've never played a spellcaster, so now I have to familiarize myself with all these spells and then remember to cast them at appropriate times."). She dislikes the classic power progression of starting out as miserable weaklings, hitting a sweet spot for a half-dozen levels, then topping out, preferring instead to start out with some level of competency and then progress in a steady, linear fashion. She dislikes having to keep track of multiple powers, equipment tracking and resource management, and so forth. She dislikes classic D&D's implicitness, is how I'd put it. As I listened, I made the conjecture that it sounds like 4e is the perfect system for her! Too bad I won't be going down that road...
She hates dungeon crawls with a passion. She hates sandbox play. (Interestingly--and I asked her this directly to make sure there was no misunderstanding--she prefers story path-style adventures, even if that means a bit of railroading from time to time.) I told her that the heart of D&D is exploration, and dungeons are a perfect encapsulation of that aesthetic. She countered that she loves exploring in Call of Cthulhu. I was surprised by this.
"In Cthulhu," I said, "exploration only leads to madness and death. At least in D&D there's a balance between peril and reward."
"I like the Cthulhu approach," she said. "It feels more authentic. I like that whether I do good or bad, I'm still doomed in the end."
This is what being a Catholic-raised gamer is like, I suppose.
From a genre convention standpoint, she really dislikes vanilla D&D. She likes settings that have fewer playable races but deeper opportunities for background. What's the point of having a half-dozen character races if they're all cardboard stereotypes, she asked. From a genre convention standpoint, it sounds like she'd love a setting like Magnamund or Legend, a more human-centric world that's a sort of D&D-by-way-of-Pendragon setting. Or something totally off the wall. I told her about Dark Sun and her eyes lit up. "Coooool!" she intoned. At the very least, I told her she was certainly not alone in feeling left cold by vanilla D&D.
The irony, in fact, is that for years--years--I was one of those very people. I've run a lot of vanilla, Silver Age-style D&D in my day, mainly because that's what my old group demanded. But I longed to run the more offbeat, unusual settings, or come up with something of my own that was somehow different from the norm. I still want to run campaigns like that. When I eventually get my copy of the Swords & Wizardry White Box, I want to run a total science-fantasy swords-and-blasters extravaganza set in Gabor Lux's Formalhaut world. Considering that Dark Sun was the first campaign boxed set I ever owned, I'd love to finally run an extended campaign in that world. I've even toyed with taking the current Wilderlands campaign up into the crystal spheres when the current story cycles finally play out around mid-level range or so.
And that's the crux of the problem: the campaign must go on. I'm always battling that curse peculiar to many gamers, the "Ooh, shiny!" phenomenon. Time and again I've questioned by choice of system (Castles & Crusades) and setting. Particularly in light of my conversation with Des today, I can now toss into the box labeled "other systems I might like to use instead" D&D 4e, FantasyCraft, or even BRP, along with earlier candidates like Swords & Wizardry or modded-out Labyrinth Lord.
I still might consider switching systems (although I'd feel a little bad about that, since I left my 1st-printing copies of C&C with our other players for the express purpose of giving them a chance to read through the rules), but one thing I can't do right now is dump the campaign entirely. Rumple Wumpkin's player, you'll recall, is going through some really rough times right now, and I know that this campaign and this character are very special to her. I'm not about to yank that rug out from under her, not as long as we can all still have fun with the campaign.
And there's not doubt in my mind that I can. I just need to reset a few expectations. In the end I guess that leaves me with the following action items:
- Embrace my fantasy-realist, Silver Age inclinations and run the Wilderlands the way my heart wants to, rather than as some left-brain exercise in proper old school sandbox blah-blah.
- Be not afraid to venture forth into domains of the weird and non-vanilla when the campaign merits it.
- Resolve to make my next D&D campaign as bizarrely off-the-wall as my long-held dreams will allow.



Interesting.
ReplyDeleteI'd actually like to hear in more detail about why she likes the pre-existing story aspect better than the sandbox.
Hearing the actual words an unhappy player would use to describe what they don;t like is more interesting than hearing metacommentary from GMs.
First of all, I find the term "pre-existing story" very amusing because it seems to assume that D&D is the opposite of "pre-existing." Everything in D&D is pre-existent. The character types, the weapons, everything. Just because the term "sand box" is used to describe D&D does not mean there is nothing in the sand box to play with. The sand boxes of my youth contained toy dump trucks, pails, shovels, and other various tools to move the sand around. Hell, there was even a wooden frame that kept all the sand in one place. So, when D&D is referred to as a "sand box" whereas something like Cthulhu or Pendragon is not, I find it confusing. Sand boxes contain pre-existing tools. And I believe D&D is full of tools people can use to create a game they want to play.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes down to it, I like Cthulhu and Pendragon because the systems are user-friendly for people who don't give a rat's ass about +2 level 2 spells done by a Level three dark orc halfing in the middle of a dark room that is later found out to be filled with nothing but some old wizard's pubic hairs. The moments of payoff in D&D never feel good to me because I have a hard time investing myself in my character.I don't think this is totally my fault. I feel the system is partially responsible for my lack of interest. It seems to focus on nothing but acquisition and that is very boring to me.
I like to immerse myself into a "pre-existing" world and figure out how I can navigate through it to the best of my character's abilities. The best example I can think of in regards to the thrill "pre-existing story" type games offer me is the Choose Your Own Adventure Series. Even though there was a story between the covers of that book, I got to choose which pages to turn to and thus, created my own narrative through the various paths laid before me. I like that. It's exciting for me to see how I fare in someone else's story. Through my character's choices, I create my own narrative. No Pendragon or Chthlhu adventure is ever the same. The moods might be similar, but each adventure is unique because my brain is like no one else's' brain.
Oh no, I wouldn't suggest D&D4 at all based on Desiree's second paragraph there, as it's all about calculating all the little numeric bonuses.
ReplyDeleteIt might be stating the obvious, but perhaps Runequest, Elric! or a converted Pendragon might be a good fit? Or even WFRP?
Sounds like she feels the system intrudes too much into the game-play, destroying the suspension of disbelief of imagining to be "there".
ReplyDeleteTell her to do what I do when that occurs. I have my fighter grab his two-handed sword and smite something, smite it hard!
Wod verification: "loavs" as in my fighter loavs him der carnage.
ha,ha your girl is a dork! :P
Personally, I would suggest that you check out Savage Worlds as a rules set. For the last two years, I've been running a fantasy game with an Old School feel, using this system. It lets you create unique characters based on skills and edges (think special abilities, and that's what edges are), with very limited restrictions of the style based on class levels. With such a system, she might get the more diverse character concepts she's looking for, and you can still run the kind of adventures you that you enjoy. The system's also flexible enough to easily handle both vanilla fantasy and swords & rayguns style gaming. ;)
ReplyDeleteHope This Helps,
Flynn
"She dislikes all the pluses and minuses and "to hit" calculations and so forth involved with most D&D iterations. She dislikes the steep learning curve for most classes ("Okay, I'm playing a cleric and I've never played a spellcaster, so now I have to familiarize myself with all these spells and then remember to cast them at appropriate times."). She dislikes the classic power progression of starting out as miserable weaklings, hitting a sweet spot for a half-dozen levels, then topping out, preferring instead to start out with some level of competency and then progress in a steady, linear fashion. She dislikes having to keep track of multiple powers, equipment tracking and resource management, and so forth. She dislikes classic D&D's implicitness, is how I'd put it. As I listened, I made the conjecture that it sounds like 4e is the perfect system for her! Too bad I won't be going down that road..."
ReplyDeleteToo bad indeed! 4e solves ALL the exact problems you listed in the above paragraph. She should for sure try it out! Why are you so against it, without even trying it?
It's easy to jump in and play and class even if you never have before in 4e, and you don't have to worry about knowing by heart and "keeping up" a dozen "buff" spells at all times as a Cleric, for example.
Yes, if you have the luxury and inclination to use a computer program to properly create a character. Oh, and you have to have a subscription to use all the features too.
ReplyDeleteAside from all that, my D&D4 group uses the character builder, and we still find ourselves having to tot stuff up at the table, because the character builder doesn't take situational modifiers into account.
You can set up a situation where it's easy to jump into a character, but it's very front-heavy in terms of preparation; someone's got to do that work.
That's not to disparage the game, as we play and enjoy it, and I don't want to turn someone else's blog into yet another D&D4 argument, but I'm not sure it's what they're looking for.
Anonymous: I accidentally deleted your second comment, which kelvingreen is responding to. I'm reproducing it here:
ReplyDelete"Oh no, I wouldn't suggest D&D4 at all based on Desiree's second paragraph there, as it's all about calculating all the little numeric bonuses."
Not true at all; Simple use the character builder program and you will never calculate a single bonus; I know I don't.
Zak: I agree, I wish more players and novice GMs blogged. I guess blogging is sort of self-selecting towards the hardcore gamer, which almost by definition are GMs.
kelvingreen: Thanks for the reminder of WFRP. That might be worth checking out at some point in the future. Between the percentile-based system, the human-centered world, and the lifepath-esque character advancement, there's a lot there to like.
Flynn: Savage Worlds has been next on my "new system" list for a while now. I picked up the MARS book during the Gamers Helping Haiti sale, so I know I'll be set to do swords-n-blasters just fine! :)
Anonymous (again): Actually, I have given 4e a try. I blogged about it here, here, and here. My feelings on it were ambivalent, along the lines of "yup, it's a pretty nice little system, but it just doesn't scratch that D&D itch for me." Plus I really don't like the 4e business model--the subscription-based character creator, the multiple Players Handbooks, etc. I'd happily play 4e again, but it's a no go as far as running it goes.
Interesting to see the "fantastic realism" bug popping up here and there lately. "Sword & Sorcery + Silver Age Fantasy Realism" is basically what Trollsmyth and I have been rocking out with for the past year or so, and when that game started, the big thing in the RPG blogosphere was those weird, golden age, "mythic underworld" type megadungeons, and attendant settings. But lately things seem to be definitely wandering around towards the Silver Age side of things again.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, not all that surprising. There's a lot more of us who learned D&D in the late 80's and early 90's than there are folks who were already haggard veterans by the time 1977 rolled around.
ReplyDeleteAnd as much an anathema as it might be to say it, I have found that, for example, BRP to be a much more intuitive system for "casual players" than basic D&D or even something newer like C&C, and certainly more than D&D3E. Saying "all these are percentage chances you have of getting it right if you try that skill" pretty much sums up BRP.
Despite how much Old Schoolers who hate skill systems claim they complicate matters, I've seen many a time that new players are much more able to grasp the concept of "skills" and their scale on, say, a percentage value, than THAC0 or any of it's D&D variations. If you knew nothing of D&D or BRP, which would you think was the better Swordsman, the 5th level fighter with +5 to hit, or the fighter who's got an 80% skill level with Broadsword? Specific applicability to individual combat situations aside, I've found someone with little to no understanding of either system will "get" what the percentile skill indicates more than the D&D mechanic.
I'll also agree with the "meh" reaction to sandbox play and the desire for a little bit of railroading. Most of my gaming group right now is playing an RPG for their very first campaign. Most of them don't give a crap what the setting is like, aren't really interested in figuring out what all the spells and class abilities do, or in fact much more than beating the crap out of the next Bad Guy I throw at them. If plonked down on a "sandbox" hex map and handed a rumor page or whatever, most of them would give up after a couple of sessions, especially if I'm mum about "which direction we should go". Sometimes, the quickest way to generate no action is to offer too many potential actions.
Anyhow, good article, and glad to see that you're getting some very honest feedback, and you're willing to listen to some of that advice.
Oddysey: I think the mythic underworld stuff was an interesting thought exercise for a lot of folks, myself included. Ultimately though, I'm not surprised if people are migrating back towards a more "realistic" take on things. Interesting how it's all paralleling the historical evolution.
ReplyDeleteBadelaire: Thanks for stating things so succinctly. Oh BRP, why did I forsake thee? And I always try to keep an open mind (having said that, watch me go off on the next commenter...;P).
Hello all, my first time posting on this blog! I’ve always wanted to come here and harass "Sir Larkins" But on a serious note I have a similar outlook on her issues with d&d, its just too childish. I loved geeking out on the stats, man I was all over it! I got any and all materials that could make my character better (you know what I’m talking about!) but then something happened. I stopped having fun, I stopped thinking about my character hacking orcs and killing dragons. Instead I was thinking of how much fun it would be to become a lord, build a castle and lead armies! I know I know right? Birthright! But even birthright would take some heavy modification to become playable, and who has that kind of time to invest in making rules, god I learned my lesson.
ReplyDeleteTo make a long story short, d&d was great when I was a teenager and thought that throwing lemons and hitting each other with sticks was fun, but now I crave a more intricate mind-stimulating game. Its just too bad Dez got into gaming at a older age and isn’t impressed with how high she can get her attack bonuses.
/flameon
Ever thought about crediting the artwork you use to illustrate your posts? That first one, for example, is actually Marienburg, which Hogshead used as the cover for the Warhammer FRP adventure 'Dying of the Light' back in the day--a place (and supplement and game) you mention nowhere in the blogpost.
ReplyDeleteCredit where it's due and all that.
James: Thanks for the heads up. I credit art where I can, but the vast majority of the time (such as here) when I find the art through Google Image Search it's through a third-party website, usually a message board. It's very rare that I'll find an image at its original source, or otherwise credited. Call it the viral nature of the Internet, I guess.
ReplyDeleteAs this is an ad-free, not-for-profit blog, it's not like I'm using other people's IP without permission in order to make a buck. But I understand the desire for artistic recognition (although you seem more concerned with crediting the product the art's associated with rather than the actual illustrator). My father's a professional artist and illustrator; the solution we came up with when I helped him put together his website was to slap a small watermark on all the digital images of his work. I wish that was standard practice, actually, as it would avoid situations like this.
It sounds to me like the DM is putting too much rules weight on the players (or at least this player). Players should be thinking about their characters' actions rather than the mechanical fluff that's only there to help the DM.
ReplyDeleteThere are limits, of course, but a DM shouldn't have to make (A)D&D players think about the rules any more often than a Runquest player does. For non-spell casters the main mechanic at the table is "are my hit points greater than zero?"
For non-spell casters the main mechanic at the table is "are my hit points greater than zero?"
ReplyDeleteFrom my understanding, that's certainly the way Dave Arneson used to run his D&D games--in fact, if I'm not mistaken, he even kept track of PC hit points!
There's a reason that has not caught on as a general style of play. Two reasons, actually. First of all, asking a GM to track the PC's "mechanical fluff" in addition to NPC/monster "mechanical fluff" is piling yet more stress and work on the one person at the table who is already working like sixty. Secondly, players generally like knowing what their options are, what they can get away with, what's possible and what's impossible. It's on a continuum, obviously, but even the most mechanically obtuse player is going to want to know they can mechanically do X, Y, and Z in order to save their butts and/or be more awesome.
More specifically to this particular situation, the problem here was that I was dealing with players who simply weren't grasping the core, central mechanic of the system. To say nothing of the fact that one of the players was in fact a spell-caster (for a time), thus adding more layers of required mechanical familiarity.
In the end, I certainly don't expect players new a system to know the rules--but I do expect them to start picking the rules up after a couple sessions, and I do expect them to eventually be able to take their own initiative on a mechanical level as well as role-playing level. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't overjoyed as a GM when a player sits down at my table showing clear evidence of having read the rules and attained some small level of mastery.