After some delays over the last couple weeks, I finally played my first game of D&D 4e tonight.
As expected, I can now officially confirm that I fall into the camp that sums it up as "a fine game, but it ain't for me". We didn't really do enough for me to form a judgment on whether I'd go so far as to call it a tactical miniatures game with role-playing elements, but...
I played with my old group via Ventrilo, so were on a double learning curve: learning the 4e system as well as how to take advantage of the many awesome features of MapTools (which would work great in a tabletop session too, if the group all had access to laptops or a projection system). We only got through the first combat (Alex, the DM, is running "Keep on the Shadowfell," so it was the kobold ambush). My character is a bard, and I rather memorably used his Vicious Mockery ability to...mock...three kobolds...to death. No, I'm not joking. It kind of put me in mind of this scene from Arrested Development:
Tobias Fünke: I'm going to take a stab at something and say that you hate White Power Bill.
White Power Bill: I hate you!
Tobias Fünke: You HATE White Power Bill.
White Power Bill: I hate the government!
Tobias Fünke: You HATE White Power Bill.
White Power Bill: I hate my father!
[thinks about it for a second]
White Power Bill: I hate White Power Bill.
[he jumps off the railing and dies]
I came up with in-game explanations for each one (e.g., my mockery distracted the kobold as he was running at me and he tripped and cracked his head open), but I have to say that the mechanics felt really divorced from the action. Like, if I hadn't chosen to explain the in-game rationale behind my Mockery, the game would have progressed along exactly the same. Which leads me back towards thinking that maybe this really is a tactical miniatures game. I mean, I'll make the same sort of "fluff" extrapolations when I play wargames, too. But I'm withholding judgment on that for now.
In the meantime, there's a pretty good article on 4e's dissociated mechanics here. Time to head back and re-read it in light of tonight's game.
Interesting data point. It's fascinating to see the wide range of reactions across the interwebs to this issue in 4e.
ReplyDeleteGood discussion about that article here:
http://www.therpghaven.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=151
The bard in our group plays it out as a psychic attack. The damage is typed towards psychic, so we figured the power is a mental based one. This usually results in the enemy becoming furiously agitated/unfocused eventually leading to some kind of a mentally induced seizure foaming at the mouth curling up and falling unconscious.
ReplyDeleteThe adult group I've run 4E for have had similar reactions - the guy playing the bard, after reading the powers and seeing them in play, and I quote "This is %$^# stupid - I'm killing people by making fun of them?" We ended up turning the powers into augmented regular attacks (i.e., he's mocking people while firing his bow) and that satisfied everyone.
ReplyDeleteMost of the people I play with have also had a similar reaction to 4E - it's a cool game but it doesn't feel like D&D and they don't really see the replay value except to try out a new class, much like you replay a console game.
Youch! I had a similar reaction, though it wasn't quite so bad. My eladrin ranger never mocked anyone to death.
ReplyDeleteHowever, nearly all the challenges we faced were based on rules and were solved by rules. It exercised exactly the same set of mental muscles as a game of 40k or Starfleet Battles. Will I play it again? Sure, it was fun. But I can't ever see myself running the game. And it certainly didn't scratch my D&D itch.
Two things worth noting: (1) the ancient Celtic bards had the ability to lampoon and satirize their targets to death (a belief that was still current as late as the early 15th century when it was said that a bard's mockery caused Sir John Stanley to die), so there is mythical precedent for the power; (2) 0 HP is no longer automatically "death" in 4E; sending your enemy to 0 HP via Vicious Mockery might just mean that you've reduced him to tears and thus taken him out of the fight.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the thought-provoking comments, all. Upon reflection I've realized that the funny thing is that I normally wouldn't have a problem with playing fast and loose and letting a character do something clever like mocking someone so severely that it sends them into conniptions. But in a game like 4e, where everything is covered by a rule--and where you have this weird flavor that's not quite abstract and not quite detailed--then you get into this mentality of expecting the game to fill in the blanks for you. And when it doesn't, it's jarring. That's why more and more these days I'm tending towards rules-lighter systems, I suppose.
ReplyDeleteMJ: I had a similar reaction. I had to ask our DM three times whether he was sure that the first minion had gone down in one round to my mocking powers. It just wasn't computing. As for the bow-firing solution, the article I linked to addresses the problem with those sorts of (perfectly reasonable) house rulings: now that you've established that the Mockery augments damage from another source, what happens if the bard in your group doesn't have access to a weapon? What then?
Rob: Interesting point about Celtic bards and zero hit points. I'll keep all that in mind. I don't think I would've had quite the reaction I did if we'd been in combat with humans, for example. The fact that these were kobolds just highlighted the weirdness of it. I mean, I suppose I could also viciously mock a snake to death, too. And what if there's a language barrier? And so forth.
Reminds me of the movie Boondock Saints:
ReplyDeleteConnor: Jeez! It's a f-in six-shooter.
Murphy: There's nine bodies, genius.
Connor: What the f- were you gonna do, laugh the last three to death, Funny-Man?